Hope isn’t about ignoring reality, says Natalie Justice, who has experienced two different cancer diagnoses. Through the uncertainty and tough days, the United Methodist minister learned that, by leaning into God, hope can be a holy medicine.
Guest: The Rev. Natalie Justice
- Justice is the host of a podcast titled, "Hope Springs Eternal." Check out the episodes here.
- To learn more about Justice's book,"Sunflowers in the Valley: Finding Hope and Healing through Faith," go to Amazon or other online booksellers.
- Follow Justice on social media at her Facebook author's page.
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This episode posted on July 18, 2025.
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Transcript
What if the most profound moments of your life are hiding in the every day, the gentle rise of the morning sun, a shared word with a stranger, the quiet stillness after a long day? These are the moments where insight strikes where truth reveals itself In everyday epiphanies, meeting Christ in the ordinary moments of life, James Harnish takes you on a heart filled journey. Through the Gospels, you'll walk alongside ordinary people as extraordinary revelations of Christ transform their lives. Each story invites you to train your heart, to sharpen your eyes, and to recognize the subtle ways God is revealed in your own life. Because sometimes the simplest moments carry the greatest meaning. Visit cokesbury.com/everydayepiphanies to order your copy and experience. The beauty of God's presence in the ordinary.
Prologue
Hope isn't about ignoring reality, says Natalie Justice, who has experienced two different cancer diagnoses through the uncertainty and tough days. The United Methodist Minister learned that by leaning into God hope can be a holy medicine.
Crystal Caviness, host: Hi, my name's Crystal Caviness. I'm your host for ““Get Your Spirit in Shape,” and I'm so excited to be here today with Natalie Justice. Natalie, can you tell us a little bit about yourself before we just dive into this conversation that I'm really eager to have with you?
Rev. Natalie Justice, guest: Awesome. Yeah. Well, my name's Natalie Justice. I'm a ordained elder in the Holston Conference of The United Methodist Church. I've served as a pastor for well over a decade and am currently serving two, I like to say small but mighty congregations in southwest Virginia. My ministry has deeply been shaped by the love for pastoral care, writing and walking with people through their highs and lows in life. I'm a two-time cancer survivor, which means if someone says, what do you mean two time cancer survivor? Well, that means I've had two primary cancers that were not related to each other at all. And so I had breast cancer and endometrial cancer, and that really shaped my own personal journey, but just the way I live out my faith and calling.
Crystal: Thank you for sharing that and your story, your journey is why you're a guest here today. You've written a book. The book is titled, “Sunflowers in the Valley: Finding Hope and Healing Through Faith.” And I want to definitely talk about the book, but I want to talk about your cancer journey first because the cancer journey is what really shaped the book. And our audience, they're hearing your voice, but they're not seeing you. But I think it's fair to say that you, you're a young woman and you've had now these two primary cancers, which is probably, I would think it's maybe rare. Can you talk a little bit about just the journey and how as a young woman, how this has really impacted you and you were already a pastor, how that's impacted your ministry?
Natalie: Oh, absolutely. Well, so I was first diagnosed at 31 with breast cancer and it was caught early, although as you said, being young, and this is, well, both cancers actually are more, it's normal for them to happen in the fifties and older. And so for the breast cancer, I remember going to a doctor's appointment and talking to a nurse and I said, I found a lump. And she looked at me, she just laughed. She goes, oh, it's nothing to worry about. You're young. Don't worry about it. Well, I went to another OBGYN, and I told him, I said, I'm concerned. He did an ultrasound and then immediately sent me in for a diagnostic mammogram. And what was interesting about the breast cancer was that the lump that I actually found was benign, but the breast cancer was developing deeper in the tissue. And so if I had not gone in for that, they would've not caught the breast cancer so early.
And so I was thankful for that. And as I said, it was early, it was stage one, and so I didn't have to do as much treatment as I did during the second journey. I did surgery and hormone therapy, and there was a test I took called the Oncotype Test, which taking that actually ruled out chemotherapy, they were going to have me do chemotherapy. But because of the test, it genetically determined that my cancer would've not responded very well to the chemo. And so I ended up not having to do chemo, and I was thankful for that. But what was interesting also is exactly 10 years later, almost to the day, three days after I was diagnosed with endometrial cancer, so both of my cancers were diagnosed in August and literally a 10 year gap. The endometrial cancer was kind of the same battle with trying to get doctors to listen.
I was having some symptoms and because I was younger than what the average person would get in regards to a uterine cancer, they told me not to worry about it. It's just hormones. It's just your body changing, don't worry. And then after really pushing over a eight-month period, then they finally diagnosed me with endometrial cancer, and that was just getting diagnosed was challenging in itself with that cancer. I did chemotherapy and radiation. The chemotherapy that I did with the endometrial cancer did six rounds and it was two of one of the most stronger chemotherapy drugs. Lost all my hair, lost my eyebrows, I lost everything, a lot of energy, but I was so thankful how my body did tolerate it, and it tolerated as well as it did because for chemotherapy, it's so different for so many people and everybody has a different experience.
And I was still able continue to work to continue to pastor, I had to make some accommodations, but both my churches worked with me on it. It was great. And then after getting through chemotherapy, I went through three grounds of brachytherapy, which is a more intense radiation and had physical health therapy to help me through all of that. I mean, really to be told I had cancer again the exact same month, 10 years later was very surreal, especially having two primary cancers not related to each other before the age of 50. I mean, it really kind of felt like a cruel twist of fate, but it was amazing. In the midst of the fear, God met me again and not with easy answers, but with presence with grace and with the people who held me up when I couldn't hold myself up.
Crystal: I cannot imagine that surreal feeling you were going to be like, you've got to be kidding me. It's like how did that impact, I mean, so many families are impacted by cancer that a close family member. I mean, it's just really prevalent. How did that impact you as a pastor when you were now either being treated for cancer or you for that decade part of the majority of that decade of cancer survivor and then having a repeat cancer diagnosis? Did that impact your pastoring?
Natalie: Oh, I think so. I mean, I think I'm a better pastor because of it. It really was really very early in my ministry career because I've been passed over a decade. And my first full-time appointment was when I got diagnosed with cancer the first time, and it was very surreal and it was challenging in regards to certain things. And it was also, you learned a lot because sometimes people, especially if they've never had cancer or if they have had cancer in their family history or journey, there's a nervousness about hearing, oh no, you've got cancer. And some people try to avoid it, and then other people want you to put on this extreme brave face and Oh, well, you're a pastor and you've got cancer, so man, you must be close with God. And one of my favorite phrases was God gave you cancer because God knew you could handle it.
And so a lot of the stuff I experienced, especially my second journey, was a little different. My first journey, it really helped shape me as a pastor. It helped me really strengthen my pastoral care. I became more understanding in regards to the holy silence and the holy listening and being able to be with somebody during a journey and be able to just sit and listen. I think as clergy, and I'm not speaking for everybody, but I know some colleagues have said, you always want to find the right thing to say, but sometimes there is no right thing to say. Sometimes just listening to how somebody's feeling in the moment is holy and a sacred moment. And so I think both of my journeys have shaped me in that aspect and helped me understand and appreciate the holy silence.
Crystal: I want to go back to the phrase that's what someone said to you, but I do, I want to talk to you about the holy silence because I really love the phrase and really the concept of that. But when someone says something to you like, well, clearly you can handle this, God gave it to you because you can handle it. I mean, I feel like that's just so, one, theologically wrong, very much so. Do you feel like you just want to just, I'd have trouble being patient with something like that.
Natalie: Yes, I got frustrated, but I learned through the experience that sometimes well-meaning people just don't know what to say and they want to have this different vision because hearing the word cancer, a lot of people say, well, it must be an automatic death sentence, but it's not anymore. And they've made so much success with medical research. So when people say that, I think it's part of it is they just don't know what to say. And for me, it was like now over 10 years ago, I was different. I got really frustrated and angry and very, I thought, man, that's so insensitive. Now at 42, I look back and I'm thinking, well, I think they mean well. They just don't know what to say.
Crystal: Yeah. Yes. I think you're probably right in the maturity of being able to give them grace. I can see where that definitely would be the right response there.
Natalie: Oh, yeah. Well, I had somebody during this journey and they were very well-meaning, and they said, well, I'm just going to pray that you don't lose your hair. And I looked at them and I said, don't pray that I'm not going to lose my hair. I am going to lose my hair, and that's just part of this treatment. Pray that I tolerate the chemotherapy well so I can continue to do what God's called me to do. I'll have to say my church members here have been amazing at Mount Carmel and Davis's Memorial. A lot of them have gone through cancer, which makes it an interesting dynamic. So they just let me have my space. They supported me. They didn't try to sugarcoat anything. They just loved me at that moment and allowed me to love them as a pastor. And that helped tremendously because the previous appointment when I had just started at this appointment when I got diagnosed and they had a whole different response and I really appreciate, but for those who do say that, I just don't think they realize how it comes off, and I think they're just trying to, A lot of people want to make sense of why somebody has cancer, especially before the age of 50.
Crystal: Right? Yes. Do you mind sharing where you are in your cancer journey now?
Natalie: Sure. 2024, I went through chemotherapy and radiation and I am cancer free and continuing to do. I told the doctors, I said, you guys just don't ever want to let me go. I continue to go visit them and scans. In fact, I have a PET CT next week and I'm not expecting anything, but it's just, it's one of those, it's an ongoing journey, but I am definitely cancer-free.
Crystal: That is wonderful. Well, you talked about this holy listening and holy silence that a lot of us probably struggle with honestly because it feels uncomfortable when we're just sitting there. Tell me, how can we become better at that?
Natalie: I'm still working on it, but I find that in the moments when you, especially wholly listening, just listening to what people are saying, what battles they're feeling and stuff, just listening in the moment, sometimes in those silent moments, that's when God fills the void because you don't always have to have a clever thing to say. Sometimes your presence is just enough and God can use your presence in that. I find even in my spiritual journey, just being quiet and listening, especially in a busy world, I learned a lot about that through going through chemotherapy and especially a couple days after the chemo, I was exhausted. I was tired and I wanted to do much, much more, but my body wouldn't let me. So during those moments, I did spend a lot of time in prayer, a lot of time just reading the scriptures and hearing what God says. So when I think of holy listening, holy science, it's just allowing God to move through that time and not be afraid of those awkward moments. And just because we don't see God working doesn't mean God's not.
Crystal: Yeah. One of the things I grew up in the church and a lot of times as Christians we're really told to lean on God and fear not. You can say how many times in the Bible is the phrase fear, not, don't be afraid, but I've heard you say that you don't have to be brave. So I want to talk about that and what that might look like for someone facing cancer or someone facing any kind of challenge.
Natalie: Well, I think often, and when I say you don't have to be brave, I think it's releasing the pressure that can also sometimes be self put on. We feel like we have to make everyone think we're doing really well, feeling great, doing wonderful, and that can isolate us tremendously. It doesn't allow us to be vulnerable in the moments when we need to be, and I think people mean well when they say you've got this, but the truth is there's just some days you don't. Some days you're scared, you're exhausted and you're angry, and that's okay because faith doesn't mean faking it. We've heard the whole phrase, fake it till you make it, but that's not what faith is. I believe that God meets us in the rawness of those moments. You can have faith and still fall apart, but still be held by grace. Bravery doesn't mean to put on an act.
Bravery means just to keep going. I think on the days when you are crying or you're upset or you're frustrated or you're looking at God looking up in the sky going, God, why? I think those are brave too. I think bravery is in the form of being willing to face what emotions are being dealt with, and I don't think that really the fear or not, I think it doesn't take away from that knowing that God's going to be there and comfort you no matter what, but it's also a continuous reminder to say, I God, I'm struggling. I'm hurting. I'm in a lot of pain right now. Lord, help me. And in that moment when we fall down and we feel a weakest man, that's when God can hold us up and keep us strong and remind us and whisper to us and say, fear not I'm here with you. I think often of the footprints poem, and that's so famous, but I think about the moments when we are falling apart and we're grieving and we're in pain and we're trying to put this whole, oh, I'm doing great, but in the reality, we're not the moments when we finally say, God, here's what's going on with me. That's when God's carrying us through the storm. So that's what I mean. I think bravery, especially for people went through cancer or even caregivers or whatever, bravery is the moment you step in the journey,
But being able to just say, I need help. There's a lot more bravery in that than putting on a facade of saying, well, I'm doing great.
Crystal: It's all fine.
Natalie: Yeah, because we're not, and it's okay to say that vulnerability is, I mean, vulnerability is not a bad thing. Brene Brown wrote a whole series on this.
Crystal: That's right. Also, I think sometimes God wants us to just surrender. That's all God's waiting for is for us to say, I can't do this by myself.
Natalie: Exactly. When we surrender, that's kind. When we finally meet God in the eye of the storm, that's when God can hold us up and say, let me lead you beyond this.
Let's take a break from our conversation with Natalie to talk about budgets and the church. Let's be honest. When you hear the word apportionments, you might think, is that just a church budget thing? We get it. It sounds like accounting, but here's the truth is actually a story of ministry, mission and multiplication. A portion giving is how your small offering becomes part of something much bigger. That means supporting churches in underserved communities. That means funding seminaries, hospitals, and disaster response teams. That means reaching people you may never meet but who know God's love because of you. It's not about how much it's about all of us showing up together. You're part of a church that is united in impact. That's a story we're sharing and a story worth being part of. It starts with you and your faithful generosity. We are the people of The United Methodist Church and together we are united in impact. Visit ResourceUMC.org/UnitedInImpact to learn more. Now, back to our conversation with Natalie.
Crystal: Something you said that I read that you said caused me to pause. You said, we know that stress affects our health, but so does hope. I want to hear more about that.
Natalie: Well, and I was reflecting on this, I think that it just came from reflecting on how the mind and the spirit really do impact the body. There's been a lot of studies today talking about chronic stress can harm our health, but we don't talk enough about hope can heal and hope doesn't mean denying reality. Like I was talking about earlier, about putting on that fake front, oh, I'm doing great, doing great hope doesn't mean denying what's really happy. It means choosing to believe that this moment isn't the whole story and that belief has a physiological effect. It can reduce anxiety, it can lower blood pressure, and it can help us preserve. I think hope is a holy medicine. I remember talking to, this was years ago, this was before my second diagnosis talking to a woman. She was stage four. She had been living with it for 10 years, continued to do treatment.
She was considered remission, but it had come back and she talked to me. I was telling her, I said, I'm just discouraged. So we were just sitting there talking in the waiting room, and she said that you've got to live each day with hope and God gives you more time here so you can experience that. I said, well, how do you do it? And she said, I take my diagnosis day and I take the day. I went through surgery and I used those not as moments of dread or moments of when my life changed and everything was falling apart. She said, I use those as moments to celebrate, because yeah, those were days that were hard, but man, in the midst of the hardness, God has revealed so much to me. And I thought, well, that's kind of cool. And so I took that as something I did. I would celebrate every year doing something special just to continue to remind myself that there is hope because God's still with us, God's with in the midst of the journey and holding us up. And I thought, man, if a person who's going through stage four cancer can have that attitude, why can't we all?
Crystal: Yeah, that's really powerful and that kind of makes me, so I asked you earlier how cancer impacted you as a pastor, but how has cancer impacted just you as a faithful follower of Jesus?
Natalie: Well, I think as we're growing, we deal with self-esteem and confidence issues, and I feel like the cancer kind of challenge me to just really to be in tune with God and to listen to what God has called me to do and not question or second guess it. Because if I feel led to do it by God, then there's a reason for it. I did the Hope Springs Eternal podcast during the time when affiliation was going and everything, and that started as I was frustrated and heartbroken about everything that was going on, and I felt God say, Hey, why don't you do this? And I woke up thinking, oh man, that's crazy. So I contacted, originally, it started with five people. I started with Adam Hamilton, Mike Slaughter, Rachel Billups, Kate Catan and Matt Rawle. And I am thinking these people sort of know me, but they don't really know me from Adam.
And I said, Hey, I got this idea. Would you all be willing to? And every single one of 'em jumped on it, and then it merged into this 33 season podcast, which was not intentional, but that's how God moves. And so it really challenged me as a person of faith to just say, I feel God's called me to do it. Why am I letting the second, second guessing? I'm just going to take a leap of faith? And I struggle with that still in life. We all do, but I find the moments that I finally say, all right, God, you've opened a door. Let me see what happens. God's faithful. And I learned from that experience as well. So I think it challenged me to just be able to really be more in tuned with what God is calling me to do and not say no.
Crystal: Well, Natalie, that sounds very brave too. And thank you for bringing up the podcast series because I definitely wanted to mention it and talk about it, and we'll link to it on the episode page because it was, as you said, you recorded them and produced them at a time when The United Methodist Church was going through a time where there was a lot of divisiveness and a lot of uncertainty about who we were as a denomination and to have these, well, the subtitle is “Positive Conversations about the UMC,” to have these regular conversations from church leaders. You have an A list, your guest list is the A list, and they're all saying, we believe in the future of this denomination. We believe in the work of this denomination. Our ministry is going to be as strong as ever. That was a really important message that so many of us needed to hear at that time. So thank you for one being brave enough to follow what God laid on your heart and then doing the work to make that happen.
Natalie: Well, and I appreciate that. Thank you. It was something that actually filled a void for me and answered a lot of questions and really made me very just more excited about the future because I got to hear these stories from people and talk to these people who I never really would've had an opportunity to except for this, and learned a lot from the experience. And also hearing their own personal testimonies and how God has shaped their ministries was amazing. I mean, hearing my bishop talk, it was so much fun to have those kind of conversations and encouraging because you don't think about some of the journeys that they went through to get there, but you look at and you're thinking, man, how diverse The United Methodist Church is because all of them had different journeys, different backgrounds, how they got there, but in the end, all of them love the church and are excited about what's coming. And really all of 'em had about the same message, and that was really neat.
Crystal: Yeah, it was really, and it still so meaningful. It's very positive and uplifting series. Well, I want to talk about your book again. The title is “Sunflowers in the Valley: Finding Hope and Healing Through Faith.” Tell me about why you felt the need to write it.
Natalie: Well, first I had, when I was starting chemotherapy in 2024, in January of 2023, I was sitting there debating and thinking, I really want to find a good devotional. And there was a lot of really good ones out there, but I didn't find one that was really speaking to me. And so I thought, well, I want to do that. So I started journaling and taking notes during my treatment and even going backwards, thinking about surgeries and stuff. And my port was removed. I had written about this in the devotion, and I felt this weight lifted off of me. And I told my boyfriend later that I really felt God had called me to write a devotional. And so that's how the book ended up getting developed. And I felt after that port removal surgery, it was like the weight's been lifted. I'm on a new stage of the journey.
Alright, God, I'm hearing you. Let's do this. And the other was, it was really trying to search for something that could speak to me at that moment, but I also wanted to speak to people at different moments in the journey. And so it's broken down into different sections, diagnosis, surgery, treatment, recovery, and survivorship, because each one speaks to a specific time, but it covers the whole journey and the journey doesn't stop once you hear cancer free. It's an ongoing journey. And so I just felt like I really wanted to write something that I felt could speak to everyone as well. I hope, like I said, I think it's a gentle companion for the Long Road of Recovery. And while it's written for survivors, I think it's also, my hope is it's also a great resource for caregivers and even pastors. It offers some insights into what someone might be feeling long after treatment are over when fear questions and need for hope are still very real. And so I feel truly God called me to write something that could walk with people through every stage of the journey.
Crystal: Thank you so much for the book, for sharing your journey in that book. Thank you so much. Being faithful to that call and creating that devotional and really a resource for, as you said, not just the cancer patient, but the caregiver, the family, friends, because it really is a whole team usually of folks around you.
Natalie: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And my hope is, like I said, that the devotions will speak to the hearts of those supporting someone through cancer and just give 'em some spiritual insights and words that can help even guide them through the care. Caregivers are wonderful and just have such a hard journey ahead of themselves. So I do hope that it can speak to them as well as pastors. And I had a pastor colleague tell me that he had bought the book and he thought, I never thought about some of the things that could impact somebody going through cancer, some of the spiritual issues, and it really meant a lot to them. So I thought, well, I never thought about that, but I'm glad that that was something that could really be helpful to them for pastoral care.
Crystal: Sure. Yeah. Well, now as we finish up today, is there anything that you wanted to be sure we talked about that we haven't yet discussed?
Natalie: No. I mean, I want to say that if you're walking through cancer or supporting someone who is know that you're not alone, that healing isn't linear. Some days will feel full of light and others will feel just heavy with questions. But no matter where you are on the journey, God is still at work. Even in the valley, sunflowers can bloom. Sunflowers are so resilient, and that's part, and I love sunflowers, but I think it just is a reminder that even our darkest valleys that God's still doing something amazing and never letting us go.
Crystal: Well, now I'm going to ask you the question we ask all of our guests on ““Get Your Spirit in Shape,” and that's how do you keep your own spirit in shape?
Natalie: Well, I love nature. We have a beautiful walking track over at one of my churches and I go walk on it and just listen to nature as well as just hear how God through, because if you're just sitting through nature, sometimes you really experience God. Prayer, laughter. I love my boyfriend Matt. He walked this journey through me with me. It just crazy. We had started dating, we were eight months into the relationship when I got diagnosed and I had a feeling it was cancer. And I looked at him and I said, what will happen if it's cancer? He's like, well, I guess we'll get through it, won't we? And he's kept me laughing through the journey and he is just been a really gift from God to me. And that's one thing that's really continues to, I experience God through laughter with that relationship writing. I love writing, and I just really love reading the scriptures. It just really helps me keep me grounded and honest. I've also learned to rest without guilt. Oh my gosh. In this busy world, we always feel like we have to keep going, but rest is so important. And like I said earlier, in the moments of those holy silences, that's when God can do some amazing things. That's all a part of my spiritual health, and through all of it I've experienced God.
Crystal: I love that. I especially love that you can rest without guilt. You're right. Our culture just doesn't encourage that. So thank you for that reminder, and that is a place where we can often, we are silent and still and we can hear God. So Natalie, thank you for being a guest on “Get Your Spirit in Shape.” Thank you for sharing with your honesty and bravery and just a way to encourage and offer hope to so many that is a true gift that you've given to us. So we just definitely appreciate it and so happy that you were here as a guest on the podcast.
Natalie: Thank you so much. I enjoyed it.
Epilogue
That was the Reverend Natalie Justice discussing her cancer journey and her book, “Sunflowers in the Valley: Finding Hope and Healing through Faith.” To learn more, go to umc.org/podcast and look for this episode where you'll find helpful links and a transcript of our conversation. If you have questions or comments, feel free to email me at a special email address just for “Get Your Spirit in Shape” listeners, [email protected]. If you enjoyed today's episode, we invite you to leave a review on the platform where you get your podcast. Thank you for being a “Get Your Spirit in Shape,” listener. I'm Crystal Caviness and I look forward to the next time that we're together.
Today's “Get Your Spirit in Shape” episode was brought to you by Cokesbury. What if the most profound moments of your life are hiding in the every day, the gentle rise of the morning sun, a shared word with a stranger, the quiet stillness after a long day? These are the moments where insight strikes where truth reveals itself in everyday epiphanies. Meeting Christ in the ordinary moments of life, author James Harnish takes you on a heartfelt journey. Through the gospels, you'll walk alongside ordinary people as extraordinary revelations of Christ transform their lives. Each story invites you to train your heart, to sharpen your eyes, and to recognize the subtle ways God is revealed in your own life. Because sometimes the simplest moments carry the greatest meaning. Visit cokesbury.com/everydayepiphanies to order your copy and experience the beauty of God's presence in the ordinary.
