Christian Collins Winn joins the Compass Podcast to share how disruptive the teachings of Jesus really are--especially in regards to our social and political systems. Christian makes the claim that, though we don’t often talk about "Jubilee" and "apocalypse", faith is all about what those terms represent and disrupting broken systems through actions like the forgiveness of debts and freedom for the oppressed and the enabling of human flourishing.
Christian Collins Winn is the author of "Jesus, Jubilee and the Politics of God's Reign". He is adjunct professor of religion at Augsburg University and teaching minister and theologian in residence at Meetinghouse Church in Minnesota.
Listen and subscribe: Apple Podcasts / Spotify / iHeart / Amazon Music
Christian's other books include:
- Jesus is Victor
- Reclaiming Pietism
In this episode:
- (00:00) Introduction
- (01:41) Meet Christian Collins Winn
- (04:04) Definition of "God's reign"
- (04:49) What is "Jubilee"?
- (06:52) What we mean by "apocalypse"
- (10:21) Jubilee in action
- (14:05) Our discomfort with the terms
- (17:55) Why is the Jubilee principle so important?
- (20:39) Jesus and Jubilee
- (24:28) God's politics
- (27:44) An example at George Floyd Square
- Fresh look at Radical Jesus with Damon Garcia
- The church, the state and prophetic voice
- Holistic evangelism and salvation
- Wrestling with Jesus' tough sayings
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This episode posted on March 23, 2023
Michelle Maldonado (00:00):
This is the Compass Podcast, where we disrupt the everyday with a glimpse of the divine. I'm Michelle Maldonado.
Ryan Dunn (00:07):
And I'm Ryan Dunn.
Michelle Maldonado (00:09):
Ryan, what do we have in store for this episode?
Ryan Dunn (00:12):
I got to talk with a fellow named Christian Collins, Wayne, about just how truly disruptive some of the teachings of Jesus really are, especially like in regards to our social and political systems. So during our conversation, we tossed around some $1 million theological terms like God's Reign and Jubilee and Apocalypse. And Christian makes the claim that though we don't often talk about those ideas, faith is really all about those terms and what they represent in disrupting broken systems through our actions like the forgiveness of debts and freedom for the oppressed, and the enabling of human flourishing.
Michelle Maldonado (00:53):
Wow. That is some powerful stuff. How did you get to meet Christian?
Ryan Dunn (00:59):
He's written a book called Jesus Jubilee and God's Reign. And really, I just found that title and topic pretty compelling, and it turns out that the ideas are really compelling. And I had a great time getting to know Christian. He is an adjunct professor of religion at Augsburg University and teaching minister and theologian in residence at the meeting House church in Minnesota. Sadly, I also found out that he's a UNC Tar Heels fan, which doesn't mesh with my, my ness, but in the name of Jesus, we got along fine,
Michelle Maldonado (01:33):
<Laugh>. Sounds good. Let's meet Christian Collins winy on the Compass Podcast.
Ryan Dunn (01:41):
Christian Collins win. Thank you so much for joining us. How goes it with your soul today?
Christian Collins Winn (01:47):
My soul is strangely warmed <laugh>. Oh,
Ryan Dunn (01:52):
What a great Methodist
Christian Collins Winn (01:53):
Answer. <Laugh>. Well, I grew up in the Methodist Church, even though I'm not necessarily serving in the Methodist context now, so I have a very deep deep and sincere place in my heart for Wesley. So mm-hmm.
Ryan Dunn (02:07):
I, I appreciate you saying that. You're strangely warned we're recording this on the Monday after selection Sunday. No doubt yesterday was not a good day for you. UNC has missed the tournament. Is apo apocalypse upon us?
Christian Collins Winn (02:22):
It might be <laugh>, it might be. And I heard some of the names of the teams that did make it. I was like shaking my head. So maybe this is world upside down.
Ryan Dunn (02:33):
Certainly. Well, we are gonna talk about things like apocalypse. People should get excited for that, but we need to put a different kind of lens on it. In fact, there are really kind of three key terms that are are central to, to your book, but are gonna be central to our conversation as well that we might need to put some definitions on or working definitions on words like, or phrases like God's Kingdom or Reign in Jubilee. And what are your working definitions for those terms?
Christian Collins Winn (03:04):
Yeah, so I'll start with the first one, God's Kingdom or Reign, cuz that's really, the book itself is kind of aimed at trying to understand that concept. This is something that Jesus talked about, preached about. Right? you don't find that phrasing certainly the terminology in the Hebrew Bible, whether the, whether we're talking about in Hebrew or in the Greek Septuagint. But the idea of God, God's rulership is everywhere to be found. The way that I kind of shorthand in functioning with it is sort of God's living inactive presence in the world that that's what I refer to as God's reign. So it's it's a dynamic. It's not so much about a certain space or realm as it is about an active engagement maybe even a kind of history of events. And typically when I, you know, in the book, I start in the Psalms and I talk about how the psalmists look back, they look back to creation, to exodus, to the giving of the law as great moments of God acting of God's reign, erupting in history, and then the prophets look forward. And so you get that sort of eschatological shift to the future there. But in both cases it's this active rain. Jubilee then is, I, I would say so I, I I take that out of Leviticus everybody's favorite book to read late at night if they sleep <laugh>.
Ryan Dunn (04:41):
Isn't there a saying that like many a good intention to read the Bible has died on the shores of Leviticus? I just punctured that, but there's something like that
Christian Collins Winn (04:49):
Out there. It wouldn't surprise me if there was yeah. It comes from chapter 25. That's where the, the Jubilee legislation is found, and it's sort of an extension of Sabbath legislation. And the idea was that once every 50 years the people of Israel were sort of to do a reset. And I think the legislation was built, it was kind of a built-in lever to to let out the social pressure that comes over time, the injustices that build up, et cetera. And there are three key things that happen in that legislation. One is the release of those enslaved the forgiveness of debts and the return of land. And so I take those holistically to refer to the act of putting people back in touch with what it takes to live. And so Jubilee, for me is a way of describing, if we're gonna say that God's kingdom refers to God's active presence, I think Jubilee is a sort of characteristic way that God acts.
It's not just that God is active, it's the way that God is, is active, that matters to me. And Jubilee captures some of that content that God wants, humankind. God wants creation as a whole to live a flourishing life. That's really what God is interested in. Now, the reality, and this then leads us to the third term, is that we live in a world filled with injustices and you know, things that we do to one another due to ourselves due to the earth. And so when God acts in such a way to bring this kind of jubilee sensibility or reality into being in a given place or time, oftentimes that means a confrontation. And that's really where I take the apocalyptic material. So apocalypse is a word that in the Greek comes from the Greek word apocalypses, which means to reveal, but it's also associated with sort of the end yeah.
Whether we're talking about the end of time, end of history, or the end of human ability that's another way. It's sort of a limit concept. Hmm. and so it carries with it a sense of confrontation and, and or either setting things right or turning things upside down. And so if God's reign is, is God's active presence of making the world a habitable place for all, which is what Jubilee is, sometimes that then requires turning over the tables of injustice that we often set up. So those are kind of the, the way that those function together.
Ryan Dunn (07:47):
Hmm. The idea of Jubilee is exciting to me, and you're lifting it up, not just as, as Leviticus does this once in every 50 year event, but is something that is like in process and ongoing. Is it even fair to say that it is like the, the happening but not realized yet,
Christian Collins Winn (08:06):
<Laugh>? Yeah. So as I trace these from the, the Hebrew text from the Old Testament into the new one of the things we see is that the, the prophets take up Jubilee as a way of talking about their liberation or their restoration. And and then the apocalyptic sort of visionaries at the end of kind of the, the Old Testament and into the kind of inter testament period, they push that even further and they will talk about sort of a, a cosmic jubilee where God is setting the whole world, right? So Jesus takes this up and he, in Luke in particular, in Luke chapter four, he starts his ministry with a quote from Isaiah, which is basically Isaiah's appropriation of Levi, of Leviticus 25. And so Jesus sort of frames his whole ministry as a kind of expression of God's jubilee.
And so building on that, then, if we're supposed to be people trying to follow Jesus you know, people on upon whom the spirit is being poured out, et cetera, however it is the, you know, whatever the terminology is that you want to use, then yeah. Jubilee is very much not just about kind of a 50 year legislation per se even about the precise details, I, I kind of use it really as a way of talking about giving access to life. Mm-Hmm. that God, that God seems to be interested in making sure that everyone has access to what it takes to live a flourishing life. And Jubilee kind of encapsulates that, I think.
Ryan Dunn (09:53):
Hmm. You also lift up though kind of the reverse aspect of that, that it, it's it's giving life to those who are in need of encountering more flourishing <laugh>, I dunno if that's the right way to put that. But, but also then there, there's something to be taught in faith to those who maybe have been materially flourishing, but are now being challenged. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Christian Collins Winn (10:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think, pardon me. One of the, one of the kind of curious or interesting historical asides regarding the Jubilee legislation is that, that we have no evidence what's over that Israel actually actually tried to put it into practice. There's one place in Jeremiah where there's a sort of dis, you know, discussion of attempting to put a portion of it into practice in order to stop an invasion. And then immediately they almost go right back to what they were doing before mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.
Ryan Dunn (10:59):
So that discomfort Yeah.
Christian Collins Winn (11:00):
<Laugh>, right? Yeah. So I think the powerful, the powerful always are gonna receive a kind of message like this as a, as, as a bad news to a certain extent. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the way that I understand Jubilee and its, you know, connotations for it being good news, certainly for the oppressed for the marginalized, the disinherited, is it, it does include a certain kind of connotation about judgment in the, in the text itself. It starts on the day of Atonement. And the way that the day of atonement is structured is that that's supposed to be a moment in which all of the various mechanisms for atonement are meant to deal with the particularly social sins. And so there's a certain kind of pattern I think that is at play there where God is saying, you have to be transitioned from one situation into another. You have to be transitioned from a situation of injustice in which you may be a partaker and maybe even a propagator and, and be removed into another place. But the whole notion of judgment then is to serve new life as opposed to destruction. Judgment is not primarily interested in destruction. It's really interested in, I don't know, clarification, transition. I, I would even use the language purification in a, in a, in a qualified sense. So I think, I hope that gets at the question you were kind of asking.
Ryan Dunn (12:39):
Yeah. Well, and it moves judgment away from being punitive to being in a restorative in a way. And
Christian Collins Winn (12:46):
Yeah. I, so I, I, I, I talk around atonement a little bit in the book partly cuz I don't fully know yet what I think about that in terms of, you know, the death of Jesus. Hmm. but if I am gonna utilize some of the older categories, I would utilize the expedition as opposed to propitiation of propitiation is sort of like appeasing and angry God. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don't think that's what is going on there. It's rather expedition, which refers to cleansing. So sort of, sort of being set free from what bounds you being put into a different posture. And so that sense of being restorative, I think does capture the meaning of, of the way I understand judgment be to be functioning in the old end New Testament.
Ryan Dunn (13:35):
Okay. Let's, we get back to these terms. In my experience, my church experience, as vast as that is we hear, we heard a lot about God's kingdom or God's reign, but I didn't hear a whole lot about Jubilee or Apocalypse, early apocalypse within the church setting. Why do you suppose we don't talk about those things very much?
Christian Collins Winn (13:58):
Well, it kind of depends on the church you're in
Ryan Dunn (14:01):
<Laugh>. Yeah, sure. Yeah. To be honest, I mean, we're talking mainline Protestant is,
Christian Collins Winn (14:05):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I've been in a number of circles where they talk too much about apocalypse and not enough about God's kingdom. You know, I don't know if the sensibility of mainline sensibility of, you know, apocalypse particularly the cultural meaning of it and the, the, the kinds of texts that perhaps you would be imagining, like the book of Revelation, I suppose is the primary one. It feels like a Hollywood, you know script, right? We just last night we had the Academy Awards or whatever, and so I could see what do you do with that in terms of how to live your life that apocalypse doesn't, wouldn't seem at least face value to offer you much constructively for ethics. I think that's a misunderstanding, but it's a, but it's a pretty natural one. So that to me would explain that Jubilee, I'm not sure.
I mean, I, it's interesting, one of the things I do in the book is I try to draw on some vignettes from the black freedom struggle to show how these different concepts are employed on the ground among communities. And one of the things that we see, at least in one of my episodes, or one of the kind of things that I point to is the use of the concepts of Jubilee and Apocalypse by African-American Christians, particularly in that reconstruction, post reconstruction period in the 19th century. And so I think there are some places where Jubilee language really does show up quite a bit. I think back also to the campaign around the year 2000 where the Catholic church was involved in proclaiming a jubilee bono and others of U2 fame were working very hard to have significant portions of the debt that had been laid upon countries in African and Asia during kind of post-colonial period forgiven. That was framed as a jubilee.
Ryan Dunn (16:17):
Was that the one campaign?
Christian Collins Winn (16:19):
I think that's right. I think it was the, the one, the one campaign. Yeah, I remember that mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So you, you, you do find that more and I think, you know, one of the reasons why I would say is, is I think that there's a kind of real significant and very important ethical strain within the mainline traditions that sometimes is actually lost in the more sort of, you know, other traditions maybe evangelical or or Pentecostal. And that's why God's kingdom is much more attractive as, as a kind of language. Do you believe those though is obviously quite useful mm-hmm. <Affirmative> in that regard mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. So it would surprise me. Maybe it's just we're out of habit, you know, and we live in a con a capitalist context. Mm. I've had, I've had, I've had parishioners actually tell me, I have a really hard time praying the Lord's Prayer because saying, forgive us our debts as we forgive others, their debts. And I don't wanna forgive someone else their debts. I'm trying to like, leverage their debt into this, that, or the other. And so, and that's someone who's honestly wrestling Yeah. You know, with how to be a Christian in a given context. So it could be that, it's that as well.
Ryan Dunn (17:37):
Christian Collins Winn (17:37):
The larger cultural forces oftentimes determine what we, what we believe and how we believe it.
Ryan Dunn (17:44):
Hmm. But we skirt that in my congregation because we say trespasses instead. Deaths
Christian Collins Winn (17:50):
<Laugh>. Yeah. We use the death language. Yeah. We use the dead language. <Laugh>,
Ryan Dunn (17:55):
What are we missing out on when we don't talk about Jubilee?
Christian Collins Winn (18:01):
Well, I think what we're, what we're losing is one of the key expressions of the God of life. You know, the one of the things that I think I was taken with was that I was kind of working on this on this book and the, and it kind of got deeper, deeper into my heart and soul, was this idea that it's not just that God is God, it's the way that God is God. It's the way that God lives or exercises power, or whatever it is that we want to say. And what we see, of course, in Jesus is a very particular way of being God, of being our friend, walking with us, caring for us. I'm sorry, I get a little emotional cuz I grew up in the Methodist Church <laugh>. Hmm. and, and Jubilee to me, I think really captures that connection because it doesn't make sense.
Like that legislation on a certain level doesn't make sense. It does make sense from one level because you're able to, you know, release some social pressures, but from a different angle from the logic of power. It doesn't seem to make sense that you would set people free, that you would liberate them, et cetera, et cetera. But it does make sense from the angle of understanding the God of life, understanding how God lives, what God has committed to what God has promised and wants us to commit ourselves to. So I think we lose something pretty profound when we lose touch with that. I think what we would lose if we don't, in incorporate some form of apocalyptic, is the sense that this world is messed up. You know, this, the world that we live in is full of, I metaphorically speaking full of devils proliferating crosses all the time. And that has to be confronted. And I think that's what Apocalypse speaks of. It speaks of God's intention to confront the wrongs in our world, not to destroy our world Yeah. But to set it right. Hmm. Okay.
Ryan Dunn (20:22):
Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you bringing up that kind of understanding of apocalypse, that apocalypse is not really the end of all things. But it is the end of, end of a way of being. Right.
Christian Collins Winn (20:34):
That's right. Both certain way of being in order to set us free to live a different kind of way
Ryan Dunn (20:39):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Well, where does Jesus fit into all this? Like, how do we understand Jesus through the lens, something like Jubilee?
Christian Collins Winn (20:50):
Yeah. And I, I obviously, I, I slightly hinted at this earlier gesture towards this in the book, what I, what I kind of do is I frame up Jesus' life. And I would say the God's kingdom and Jubilee, there've been a lot of studies on this. And they, and they particularly focus on Jesus' life, his ministry. And what I try to do is track these three things all the way through his, his life, his death, and his resurrection. That all of these together make up this threefold chord of the kingdom of Jubilee and apocalypse. My principle argument in the whole book is that if we want to know what the kingdom is, what it really looks like concretely, then we look at Jesus. And therefore in some sense, he embodies God's jubilee reign. And I think this is demonstrable simply by, you know, the reading of Luke four, that Jesus clearly understood himself in that way. And then it's repeated I think in chapter five or six, he actually repeats the same set of parameters when the, the John the Baptist comes and says are you the one that we were expecting? Or is there gonna be another? And he says, look around, see what's happening. You know, and he kind of recounts the same things that you hear in the Isaiah text.
Ryan Dunn (22:21):
And he says, there are people are the blind gaining side and, and
Christian Collins Winn (22:24):
Yeah. Okay. Just a kind of a recapitulation of of that text. And so, so what it becomes then for me is, is Jesus becomes then sort of the, the, the quintessential expression of God's reign. I mean, if we want to talk about what is God, the act, what is, how does God act? How is the living God? God, we look at Jesus and we get that picture of what that is. And of course, Jubilee in Jesus' hands is kind of a lot more, I would say capacious kind of moving in the direction of what I've been talking about than say just simply Leviticus 25. He's not advocating just Leviticus 25, he's, he's advocating something much bigger, much broader. And, and that's kind of where my own understanding of that fits in. And I, I think we, we, we come then to see Jesus as truly to be identified with Yahweh truly to be good news.
First for the poor and lowly, but also for the rest of us who are caught up in the same systems that, that dehumanize the poor and the lowly. Those of us who seem to benefit have to go through our own process of experience, I suppose, of trial or tribulation, judgment, whatever you want to use. But on the other side of that is true human flourishing for us and for others. Hmm. And I think what we learned then, not only about Jesus, is we learn about, about God, is that God wants to truly be our friend wants to truly be in fellowship with us. You know, like Wesley <laugh> emphasizing that a central characteristic of who God is, is is the goodness of God. Hmm. That God is truly good.
Ryan Dunn (24:28):
Well, in talking about things like God's reign in the life of Jesus you do incorporate the word politics, but I I get a sense that politics goes beyond legislation, you know, the idea that we might normally attach to it when we're talking about like the American political system. So can you unpack politics for us a little bit? Like how broadly you're applying it here, what does it mean?
Christian Collins Winn (24:52):
Yeah. I'm, I'm using it in a couple of different ways. I mean, one way I'm using it, I is sort of the classical Greek understanding of, of that which concerns the common good. So politics is the way that we navigate, negotiate competing ideas of the good, what the good is, et cetera. I'm also using it really as a shorthand to indicate that all these things that we are saying about Jesus and God and et cetera, are not sequestered to the individual realm or the religious realm, whatever that is. But it has to do with our social arrangements, the way that we live our lives. And, and that of course includes things like legislation and you know as much as it also though includes the way that I treat my neighbor mm-hmm. <Affirmative> you know, those little acts of kindness and generosity those also are included, but are that, is that enough?
I don't know if that's enough or not. I think it should include other, the struggle for justice as well. And then I think lastly to me, politics the, at least the way it functions in the title is a way of naming the apocalyptic element. And that, what I mean by that is that typically even in the Greek philosophical tradition the political realm was the realm of contestation, right? There's, there's contest mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, there's struggle that's happening mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and God enters into that struggle. I think that's what we see in Jesus. But the, the weapons, quote unquote, or the way that God wants to wage God's struggle is very different than the way that we typically wage those struggles over power, et cetera. So yeah. So that word politics has a, it does not simply mean partisan politics. In fact, I'm trying to stay away to a certain extent from that.
But it doesn't not include the need to have, you know, legislation to ensure we have clean water. The, the need to really seriously consider whether we should be really spending trillions and trillions of dollars on military expenditures. The question about can we clean up our environment? Can we find ways to give more access to education, et cetera, et cetera. And so you can kind of go down the line. Hmm. And I think you'd find a lot of issues that some of them would resonate on one side, and some of them would resonate on both sides, so, Hmm.
Ryan Dunn (27:44):
Well, you're able to put a, a real world example to to this idea of politics in God's reign through George Floyd's Square in your book. I have to admit, that was the first time I'd heard of George Floyd's Square. So maybe I'm not alone in that, for our listener who's like, well, I've heard of George, George Floyd, but what is George Floyd Square? Can you tell us about what that is?
Christian Collins Winn (28:11):
Yeah, so George Floyd Square is it's basically on Chicago in 36 in South Minneapolis. Pretty much it's, it's right where George Floyd was murdered by Minneapolis Police Department. And what happened is after that event, of course there was an uprising that was really about more than just the murder of George Floyd and I talk a little bit about that in the book. That there had been a long history of policies and practices that had pretty much led to significant deprivation and, and real problems for the area. Lack of access to good healthcare, et cetera, et cetera, breakdown of the family violence what, what have you. So the, the uprising happens as an expression of frustration around that. And the community in response to that, and I mean, the community kind of around that area decides that they are gonna create an autonomous zone.
And that's really what George Floyd Square becomes. It's a zone where they refuse the police to be allowed to enter. And they begin to redress some of the policies that I think they had been experiencing over many years, at least. I think that was the aim. So you start to have then clothing distribution, food distribution I think they built a greenhouse to grow fresh vegetables. There were people who were volunteering there for medical services, psychological services, legal services and the neighborhood the, they had a neighborhood watch that they created, and they would meet. My understanding was that I don't, I don't know if they curtailed this, but for a while, they were meeting twice a day, once early in the morning, once in the evening. And they would process what had happened during the day, and they would make communal decisions about what was gonna go on next, what were the next steps, et cetera.
And one of my former students, Andy Brown, lived about probably 50 feet or so from George Floyd Square. So that was kind of how he, he was the one who was sort of telling me some of these things. And then there was a series done by Minneapolis or Minnesota Public Radio on this as well. And what I, what I, what I was struck by in all of that and all that detail was that this was an expression of what we call the practice of commoning. And commoning is a term that refers to recovering that which is common to all right? So a common ground, common land et cetera. It's rooted in you know, kind of things that go back into medieval England and medieval Europe where common lands and forests were slowly but surely enclosed en claimed by typically more powerful people.
And so the average person who, you know who cut wood and, and carried water, could no longer access the forest. And one of the reasons why that was you know, negative, is that you went into the forest to, you could, you could supplement your food, you could find berries and other mushrooms, things of that nature that might have a medicinal value. You could gather firewood, you could have fresh wa I mean, there were lots and lots of things that you got out of the forest and out of these common lands that all of a sudden someone just decides that's not gonna be allowed anymore. Mm mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. so the process of enclosure, though, among some theorists has come to be a sort of shorthand for talking about what the modern world really like, one of the, kind of most deleterious effects of the modern world, of constantly closing off that, which is common, the common treasury of all.
And so when you have these moments like George Floyd Square, where this sort of commoning is happening, it's really a pretty remarkable thing. They're basically saying they're not gonna gonna accept assistance from the state. They're not gonna accept assistance from the city. They're going to do it themselves because they hold this area, this land in common together. So I, I was struck by that, and I thought it was a, a great example also of what I think you know, to, to riff out of the book of Acts what maybe early Christian desires for their community was. And I, I lift up sort of that Acts chapter two in chapter four, that talks about the apostles holding all things in common to kind of give it grounding. So Mm.
Ryan Dunn (33:21):
Christian Collins Winn (33:22):
<Affirmative>. And so that's a pol. I mean, that's a politics, right? That's a common good. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's a community of people coming together, working together, debating, not always agreeing on things, but working so that everyone have, has access to what they need to live. And it also is a politics in the sense that it's saying no to the state. It's saying no to corporate interests. It's saying no to the city. You know? So it's confronting as much as it is being creative. And I, I, I just think that's a really interesting model for thinking about what politics might be.
Ryan Dunn (33:56):
Have you seen other examples of this either in the present or in the past?
Christian Collins Winn (34:02):
Well, the only one that comes to mind, it's a great question. The one that comes to mind, of course, is the was the Wall Street the 99
Ryan Dunn (34:10):
And the is it the Occupy Wall
Christian Collins Winn (34:12):
Street? Yeah. The Occupy Wall Street movement. I think they were doing something somewhat similar. I can't remember where they were located, but, and there are, there are certainly examples in the, kind of the history of particularly in the 19th century, there's a number of interesting kind of communal attempts that are going on oftentimes in the Midwest in places like Iowa, et cetera where you can find these kind of utopian communities that are trying to, to do something like, like that mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and they might provide something of a, an inspirational model. I'm not saying something that should be precisely replicated, but still,
Ryan Dunn (34:52):
Yeah. Well, I think what's attractive or fascinating about George Floyd Square is that it, it's not an attempt to kind of be removed from the culture at large. Right. It is something that is engaging with and trying to be inside
Christian Collins Winn (35:03):
Of. That's right. Yeah. There's not a withdrawal here.
Ryan Dunn (35:06):
Yeah. No. And that can be the trap of sometimes trying to move into an alternate system, right.
Christian Collins Winn (35:13):
<Laugh>. Right, right. Yeah. I, I mean, one of the groups, one of the sort of ecclesial groups that you could point to where you see the most attempts to experiment with Commoning are the aaps. So the Mennonites Hutterites, those kinds of traditions brooder off. And, but there you also then see the temptation aspect of withdrawal. So sometimes it leads to kind of sectarianism mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and so this, this one was more, was much more like an, an engagement, as you said, it's, it's not even a, it wasn't even a religious Yeah. Thing. I just, I thought the parallels of it were striking, and it, it struck me as a kind of parable, is the way that I would, would describe it, kind of parable of the kingdom.
Ryan Dunn (36:01):
Yeah. Yeah. And it is profound in that way and inspiring. So I, it certainly encouraged people to, to kind of research that out as they're looking for, I guess, practical examples of God's reign enacted. Of course, you know, the gospels provide a pretty good look at that <laugh> as That's right. Well, as you've already lifted up through Jesus kind of being the embodiment of, of our understanding of that. Christian, for folks who, who wanna follow a little bit along with some of the work that you're doing, where's a good place to, to take note of you online?
Christian Collins Winn (36:35):
Well, obviously I have a, I'm, I'm a Gen Xer, so I <laugh>, I have a Facebook page. I have an Amazon author Central Center, and then I'm a pastor at Meetinghouse Church up here in Minnesota. So those are different places where you can find access to my work. And then of course, I'm on I think I'm on research gate as well, which lists a lot of my writing and, and, and otherwise.
Ryan Dunn (37:05):
Cool. Well, thank you so much for giving us this perspective today and for lending us your time as well.
Christian Collins Winn (37:10):
Absolutely. It's a pleasure to be with you. Blessings.
Ryan Dunn (37:14):
All right. We've been thoroughly disrupted by looking at things like Jubilee and Apocalypse and the intervention of God's reign, and that helps us discern the divine presence in our present day stories as well.
Michelle Maldonado (37:28):
We've also been a little disrupted by the birds in the background, but that's okay. Thanks for talking to us this week, <laugh> <laugh>. The Compass Podcast is brought to you by United Methodist Communication. If Compass has been meaningful for you, then check out a couple more of our episodes.
Ryan Dunn (37:45):
Yeah. If you like this one, then the one called the church, the state and prophet prophetic voice might be right up your alley as well. That was episode 88 from August of 2022. Another episode that gets all up into the disruptive ideas of Jesus was our episode with Damon Garcia. That's called A Fresh Look at Radical Jesus. And that was episode 89. And while you're listening, do us a huge favor, leave a rating and or review.
Michelle Maldonado (38:11):
Compass comes out every other Wednesday unless we are interrupted by a holiday, in which case will hit your feed the following week. But we'll be back online within two weeks time in this case. Chat with you then.